Feature by Brad Balfour, Arts Editor
Ever since director Chloé Zhao’s “Hamnet” was screened, there’s been lots of hype over the film. This has been happening particularly because of the performances by Irish-born Paul Mescal and Jessie Buckley who are just starting to gin up awards talk, making the Oscars’ shortlist in several categories along the way. Now in the full flush of award nom fever, the film is stirring further support, both for its nuanced performances and the rethinking of master playwright William Shakespeare’s life story. Based on Maggie O’Farrell’s novel of the same name, the mysterious life of the great bard is given a new and touching back story.
At age 11, Hamnet, Will and Agnes’ son, dies of the plague. That tragedy affects the couple profoundly, ultimately leading to much distance between the two. Will goes to London to develop his plays and a theater company. Finally, he debuts his new work, “Hamlet,” which is performed at the Globe Theatre. Agnes comes to see the work and connects with it and the actor playing Hamlet (Noah Jupe), seemingly reuniting the two and ultimately with Will as well.
Both Buckley and Mescal have been hailed as two within a generation of young actors creating profound work — especially out of Ireland — and garnering much praise along the way. Relative newcomer Zhao won an Oscar for her third feature, “Nomadland,” and has now made “Hamnet.” Many have declared it as a luminous and complex examination of an unusual family coping with loss and recovering through art.
This Q&A followed a recent screening of this film, and through heavy editing, provides a document which describes the many and unique ways in which the production was conceived and completed.
Q: Talk about your way into this. It’s not just the book, there’s so much more.
Chloé Zhao: Half of the time [it was] Maggie’s book and the world she’s created, the portal she’s opened to somewhere else by writing it, and the energy she conjures throughout the entire book. Then the rest is these guys.
Q: Right, But it is so much more than the book — especially with these actors.
Chloé Zhao: When you’re in your 40s — compared to when you’re in your 30s — you come down a little bit. In my 30s, I still had that kind of pioneer spirit where I wanted to go to the horizon and capture as many treasures as possible. Our cameras are usually quite insatiable and restless, and we wanted to see everything. Then in your 40s — in my 40s — after being in that crisis [after making Marvel’s “Eternals”], I realized the need to have the camera stay still and see the actors embodying the characters, conjuring their energies, and discovering how much a frame can hold some tension for an audience to experience. The result comes from really being able to work with cinematographer Lukács Żal and our production director Fiona Crombie, as well.
Q: The film is beautiful and brings us into the 16th century, where storytelling was different. Two sequences, about Paul and about Jessie, [reveal] moments of storytelling in the woods, which are so cinematic. You get the feeling of Agnes [Buckley] being an incredible audience [for him] — a giving audience who understands storytelling in a way that’s primal. With Will [Mescal, you’re not showing off. It’s not like, “Oh, here’s this brilliant man.” Instead it’s simply a man who’s gifted at telling a story and capturing an audience. The sequence is so beautiful, how it sets up the characters.
Paul Mescal: That was one of those days for me, the closest I came to having a meltdown. I’ll tell you why. I did have a bit of a meltdown because I was suddenly confronted with — which was maybe naive of me — but suddenly when you’re confronted with the reality of what you’re trying to avoid, this concept of the great William Shakespeare. You’re confronted with the fact that you’re playing William Shakespeare, and have to tell a story. Not just any story, [but] the story of Orpheus and Eurydice [the myth bard who tries to bring his love out of Hades]. I was like, “Fuck, this is going to be [a challenge.]” But it was one of those [days]. It was like day three or four.
Me and Chloe had pretty robust conversations about what that should feel like. I think the three of us had a really important day on the set because it felt like our creative relationship and personal relationship could tolerate such robustness. I also felt very supported by Chloe and Jessie in that endeavor. That moment felt very exposing to me as an actor where it’s like, “Oh, you can’t step back from this. You can’t lean on an interiority with this. You’ve got to let the joy of the story come through, but not feel like you’re showing off as William Shakespeare.” It was tricky to tell [and follow] in the film.
Q: Talk about filming Agnes because she’s not a traditional heroine in this sense, but she’s so powerful. She’s been able to release so much power.
Jessie Buckley: I think before she meets him, there’s a lot of need in her. In some ways, [she] has been exiled for her contact with her need in her body. It’s at a time in history where people are starting to cut themselves off and move away from [the power of] touch, move away from nature and the body, really. Because of her uncompromising relationship to her body, to natural elements, she’s chastised and projected to be this witch and wild woman — too much for any man.
From their first collision, when they meet in that barn, they’re both unknowable to each other, but it’s a bit like two elemental plates colliding. Then she realizes that if he were to know who she was, would he be able to contain all of that [which] she is? Would she be able to contain all that she feels from this very simple act of touch that she does with her hands, which is kind of her compass. That’s the work where she kind of compasses herself to feel into people.
I guess this moment is so beautiful because it actually begins with a lot of defensiveness. That first [time] where they actually [connect] …. He chooses to come back and find her, even knowing who she is. There’s a lot of defensiveness. It’s like their first discovery of each other in some way, to listen to each other and to the way he talks, the rhythm that he talks in — to know that this is a man who feels so much more than a lot of other people that live around her. I think we could have the capacity to love and live and hold the biggest part of each other.
Q: Coming back to the sense of touch [that we see Agnes using in the film], that’s something that comes through. In addition to their love, of course, there’s the grief in this incredible story about family. When they set up that she should be pregnant in the scene with the entire family, it’s a wonderfully cinematic scene, very well edited. It’s edited in camera in a way and through the performance. Chloe, talk about staging that scene. It’s really brilliant.
Chloé Zhao: It is quite terrifying to have [this] in front of Emily Watson [who plays matriarch Mary Shakespeare, mother of William]. To go to her and say, “Maybe you should go back a little bit.” No. That was free-blocking, and was one of those moments when it worked. So we asked them, “Where would you like to be?” Then they all just went into the room and went, “I think I’m going to be here.” I think she was like, “You’re the first one. You just sat in front of the table, like, I’m going to be here.” Everyone else sort of found their spot. Then Lukasz runs around with his phone and gets the shots. But we do have some intentions. The goal was to see how much light was in one place. It’s one stage, one backdrop.
Q: It’s beautiful to watch that scene with Mary and Bartholomew [Hathaway, Agnes’ brother]. Bartholomew [played by Joe Alwyn] really comes across as the man of the house. He’s so young but he has to step into this kind of role that he wasn’t quite prepared for. Talk about building on Bartholomew in that sense. He’s the key to understanding so much about the impact family has on us, up to the final lines, where it sets open the heart.
Joe Alwyn: Yeah, I suppose in that scene specifically, he obviously doesn’t want it to happen but he’s holding on to a conversation which will then extend outside with Agnes. I think throughout, he’s someone who holds a lot of space for Agnes and is willing to stand and be there for her at those big moments. Regardless of [whether] they always ring true with him, he will — like a tree — ust be there next to her. And so for that proposition of births or deaths or for the journey at the end, he’ll stand by her.
I liked the idea. It’s obviously in the book, and you see it in moments of flashbacks in the film — that the two of them kind of [forged a relationship] together outside of society, in the woods. With their slightly unusual upbringing, [there’s] the feeling that they were outsiders. He is an outsider as well and I think there’s a loneliness to that and to him. But there’s a strength in something that’s almost sacrificial. I think for him as well, everyone is him. He will continue to stand by her. I think it’s a really lovely relationship.
Q: With Mary Shakespeare, she’s the central adult in their lives. And that moment of understanding, of grief through her is tragic. But also you see how powerful an adult can be. You are teaching the daughter to say he’s gone, there’s nothing else you can do. She repeats that line. It’s such a strong character. Talk about working through Mary, because you’re very familiar with Shakespeare obviously. She’s your mother.
Emily Watson: You know, I think we reach a sort of central line at the end of the film where Joe says keep your heart open. I think Mary’s heart is closed at the beginning for sure. She lives with a violent man. And she lives in a very paranoid society where you’ve had your religion changed by the state not that long ago. You can’t speak openly about what you think, what you feel.
I also know Stratford-upon-Avon very well. My husband is from there. I spent a lot of time there and that’s still to this day a small town mentality. They’ve got an awkward little human town. It’s still very judgmental. And this young woman terrifies her because she is everything that the town is not. Yet she is Shakespeare’s mother. And it doesn’t come out of nowhere. My experience of making the film really was that it became impossible to carry on playing that strong, hard woman because of what was happening in front of my eyes. What these incredible actors were doing just kind of blew me open really. I didn’t necessarily know that that was my plan. There you go.
Q: It’s a performer’s gift. Chloe what you’ve done [is] also channeling the artist in certain ways. Talk about your focus on the set? How do you focus on where to look into this? Every performance here is amazing whether it’s centered or in a corner.
Chloé Zhao: I stay by the camera and look at the scene, maybe not rehearsing but sort of going through a take or two. But I ask them to be as embodied and present as possible. The best way for me to judge sometimes — I would say 30% — and intellectually I understand what distance means, what composition means. I went to film school and watched films, but I feel it in my body. I really do. I’m extremely sensitive and so, if I am where the camera is, I will be where you are. I can feel how much energy is coming at me.
Whether it’s enough or not, my stomach is tightening, turning so my throat feels dry and my hand tingles. I’m trying to use my own body as a cue as well to inform where the camera should be. If we could allow the camera to be another character. We talked about the camera being dead or being this omnipresent. I have to use my own body as a measurement. So any of the somatic exercises that they do to get themselves embodied, I try as much as possible to get myself there as well.
Q: Jacobi, as the youngest here [playing Hamnet], somatic exercises might be new for you. A lot of this may be new for you, but your performance in “Hamnet” is so interesting. We talked about the hands, so what did you take from the adults, the parents? How you [as Hamnet] put an arm on your sister, just like his mom would do to heal — it’s just such a great touch.
Jacobi Jupe: I think that’s what I saw. What the adults [were] doing a lot was trusting Chloe to guide them into this place where I think that we all went — which isn’t really a “place” but is at the same time. I think it’s where you go in your head and it’s just [about] complete trust. You just have access to your emotions in that way where you can go for it.
Chloé Zhao: That’s really beautiful.
Jacobi Jupe: We wouldn’t have been able to go there without you.
Chloé Zhao: Aww. Aww. Cookies for you.
Q: You enter the Globe [Theatre, where Shakespeare had his plays performed] and it’s a different level of performance that happens here. You have “Hamlet” being performed for the first time — it’s the first Hamlet [beautifully performed by Noah Jupe]. It’s a really tricky situation, so what was your experience? Chloe had to build that Globe.
Chloé Zhao: Yeah, not the whole thing, the CG [computer graphics] helped.
Noah Jupe: It was pretty darn close and realistic. I think me and Paul also got to do stuff in the back, like in the dressing rooms which were so detailed with swords and costumes and all this [stuff]. It felt really visceral and real. There was honestly such a great energy in there. For something that was built as a set, it felt extremely concrete and grounded.
Paul Mescal: But not very safe with that…
Q: In developing that sequence, it’s not about perfection. It’s about the imperfection.
Chloé Zhao: How dare you — I’m just kidding.
Q: The idea of him discovering the power of what this performance could be — and would be going into the next few centuries. It’s a tricky thing, but it’s incredibly well done.
Chloé Zhao: Actually, Noah, you said something in the Q&A a couple of days ago. I didn’t even realize how he went through non-performing…
Noah Jupe: When I first got the project or heard about the project, it was like, “Fuck, it’s Hamlet.” But then I was like, “Okay.” Also, it’s the act of playing Hamlet and playing him at a time when there wasn’t as much pressure on Hamlet as [being this iconic] character. I kind of was like, “Okay. Actually, it’s not as bad as I think it is.” What was really nice about playing this character was the journey from performer to truth. And [it was about] starting off as an actor in the theatre, getting his lines right, focusing on the performance and the sword fight. Then [it was] moving to a place of seeing how much he’s affected the audience, and suddenly entering this place of complete truth.
I think we’re all trying to reach with our filmmaking [a place] of truly connecting to people, healing them and changing their lives. I think there’s these moments that happen very rarely in films, at least for me, where you enter a place of higher truth and are completely vulnerable. I felt that in the moment when Jessie [as Agnes] reached her hand out to me [while I’m playing Hamlet], so I felt that about this film as well.
Q: Chloe, while you were writing and directing “Hamnet,” was there anything new that you discovered in the editing process that was really different from the beginning, when you first had the inception of it.
Chloé Zhao: Oh my gosh, that editing period was really intense because the filming of it was like a huge Ayahuasca ceremony. The editing process is painful integration, and I think one of the most difficult things is what will go on. We cut a part that was really potent in the book that I thought was so important because after Hamnet died, there’s a long period of Will being in the house and not having space because everyone’s grief is so immense.
Then after that, there’s this very long period of Agnes frozen in the house but also looking, trying to find Hamnet, but she couldn’t find him. That is a big setup for the importance of The Globe. In the book, she used to be able to access the dead, but this time she couldn’t. It’s significant in the book, and we shot those scenes. I had to cut [them] because it was too long and also, just how much the audience can handle it.
Q: For you as the director and you all as actors [is the role somatics play in the making of this film. [This use of body movement exercises and techniques] is something that was unique about how you entered the [acting] space and built these spaces together. Talk about how you brought that up as a part of the process — creating a somatic connection.
Paul Mescal: That was a new thing [for me]. It reminded me of early drama school exercises in movement, but it hasn’t been a firm part of my process in films that I’ve done before. Essentially my and Jesse’s first day in rehearsals was like a tantric workshop, which is pretty full on. But when you start there you’re kind of like, there’s no bottom to any of this anymore. It’s just like we’re not communicating hardly at all. We skipped the heady parts where we were just in physical connection with each other. I don’t know. I felt like we didn’t dip our toes into the work. We kind of just jumped in and those exercises were incredibly useful for that.
Jessie Buckley: I think we all wanted [it] to be about being embodied and engaged. But also, for me, the best feeling of working is when you’re in a fluid, unconscious yet very alive state. I’m always trying to get myself into a very raw-like present state. And so I think what I remember [of] doing this job is that I’m an artist, and I’m here to create something from the truth of where I am. In meeting the work, it’s 50-50.
So anytime I feel like when it really starts cooking is, if you start to open a book or open a world is [like when] you open a script and you open a character. You have to start really listening to your unconscious, where your instincts are driving you, where your body is driving you. Who’s standing in front of you? How is that making you feel? How can you become braver to connect to that thing that’s in front of you, the world around you, and what’s going to help you get out of your head? Because your head is the worst. That’s when you get stuck. We became very alert and awake to our dreams.
For me, that became my kind of [liberation]. I’m not very good at working linearly, projecting an idea of where I think this day is going to go or what this character is going to do. I need something abstract. I need something that’s below the surface … that I have really no idea what it’s about. It’s an essence that can just navigate me to some unknowable place but feels attuned to the world that I’m already in. When you’re working with these amazing people, it’s easy.